Od: Moon-net-bounces@list-serv.davidv.net Odesláno: 30. záoí 2006 Komu: Moon-net@list-serv.davidv.net Poedmit: Moon-net Digest, Vol 64, To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://list-serv.davidv.net/mailman/listinfo/moon-net_list- serv.davidv.net Today's Topics (short form of): 1. Re: 10 GHz polarization discussion at Wurzberg ?? (Ivo Chladek) 2. Re: 10 GHz polarization discussion at Wurzberg ?? (Jerry Kleker) 3. 10GHz Polarisation (Brian Coleman) 4. Re: 10GHz Polarisation (Luis Cupido) 5. 10GHz Polarisation (Chris Bartram) 6. Fwd: 10GHz Polarisation (vladimir.masek@volny.cz) 7. Re: 10GHz Polarisation (Luis Cupido) 8. Re: Fwd: 10GHz Polarisation (Alex) 9. 10GHz Polarisation (Brian Coleman) 10. Re: 10GHz Polarisation (Earl (Jim) Shaffer, WB9UWA) 11. Re: 10GHz Polarisation (Jerry Kleker) 12. 10GHz EME (Edward R. Cole) 13. CIRCULAR VS LINEAR POLARIZATION ON 10 GHz EME (Jerry Kleker) 14. Re: 10GHz EME (Brian Coleman) 15. Re: CIRCULAR / LINEAR POL ON 10 GHz EME (DF6NA Rainer) 16. Re: [Mw] CIRCULAR / LINEAR POL ON 10 GHz EME (Jerry Kleker) 17. Re: 10Ghz feedhorns (Jerry Kleker) 18. Re: [Mw] CIRCULAR / LINEAR POL ON 10 GHz EME (Jerry Kleker) 19. Re: [Mw] CIRCULAR / LINEAR POL ON 10 GHz EME (DF6NA Rainer) 20. Re: Fwd: 10GHz Polarisation (Philippe P) 21. Re: [Mw] CIRCULAR / LINEAR POL ON 10 GHz EME (Luis Cupido) 22. 10GHz Polarization (Brian Coleman) 23. Re: 10GHz Polarization (Jerry Kleker) 24. Re: [Mw] CIRCULAR / LINEAR POL ON 10 GHz EME (Jerry Kleker) 25. Re: [Mw] CIRCULAR / LINEAR POL ON 10 GHz EME (vladimir.masek@volny.cz) 27. Re: [Mw] Fw: CIRCULAR / LINEAR POL ON 10 GHz EME (Luis Cupido) 28. Re: Hot discussion about CP on 10GHz EME (vladimir.masek@volny.cz) 29. Re: 10GHz Polarization (Willi Bauer) 30. Re: Hot discussion about CP on 10GHz EME (Luis Cupido) 31. Re: Hot discussion about CP on 10GHz EME (Jerry Kleker) 32. Re: Hot discussion about CP on 10GHz EME (DF6NA Rainer) 33. Re: 10GHz Polarization (OK1DFC) 34. Re: 10GHz Polarization (Jerry Kleker) 35. THANK YOU!!! (Jerry Kleker) Note: setup from more Moon-net emails on that issue by OK1VPZ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 20:34:50 +0200 From: "Ivo Chladek" Subject: [Moon-net] 10 GHz polarization discussion at Wurzberg ?? Hi all, I am not sure what is the fuzz about ! It was decided already in Prague 4 years ago, that it is circular. How many times we have to re - decide ??? 73, Ivo, ZS6AXT ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Kleker" Subject: [Moon-net] 10 GHz polarization discussion at Wurzberg ?? > I understand that there was to be a discussion and debate about circular versus linear polarization for 10 GHz EME. > Did the debate take place? Was there a conclusion? Would somebody please report? > > Thank you es 73, > Jerry W7QX ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 12:28:14 -0700 From: "Jerry Kleker" Subject: Re: [Moon-net] 10 GHz polarization discussion at Wurzberg ?? To: "Ivo Chladek" Hi Ivo, ESPECIALLY BECAUSE THERE ARE 2 WELL KNOWN AND PRESTIGIOUS INDIVIDUALS (WA7CJO AND WA5VJB) WHO HAVE INDIGNANTLY INSISTED THAT WE ALL SHOULD STAY LINEAR!!!! THERE WAS TO BE A VERY HEATED TECHNICAL DISCUSSION AT THIS YEAR'S EME CONFERENCE BETWEEN WA7CJO AND S57UUU BUT S57UUU COULD NOT MAKE IT DUE TO PERSONAL DIFFICULTIES! THE DISCUSSION NEVER TOOK PLACE!!!! YOU AND I AND SOME OTHERS MAY AGREE THAT CIRCULAR IS THE WAY TO GO BUT THIS IS WHAT ALL THE FUZZ IS ABOUT!!!!!!!! THERE ARE MANY MICROWAVE EME HAMS THAT DO NOT KNOW THAT A DICTATE WAS MADE AT THE 2002 EME CONFERENCE AT PRAGUE!!!! 73 es TNX for asking, Jerry W7QX ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 21:21:59 +0100 From: "Brian Coleman" Subject: [Moon-net] 10GHz Polarisation To: "Moon Net" Hello All Anyone interested in the 10GHz polarisation discussion may be aware that with others various tests are being conducted to try and establish whether circular polarisation will be advantageous at 10GHz or not. Some results are posted on my web pages at http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/g4nns/Poltests1.html . In my view, there are further tests to be done before a balanced conclusion can be reached. At present my view is that for inter EU or EU - US contacts following the convention of EU vertical and US horizontal the benefits of circular will be marginal at best. If the circular system has more than about 1dB of elipticity or if the circular polarizer system involves coax, particularly on the receive side, that marginal advantage could be negated. Where both these are true I doubt there will be any useful advantage. If anyone wants to continue this discussion and analysis AFTER the other necessary tests have been done I would be pleased to hear from them. The tests which are needed include:- Circular to Circular and Circular to rotateable linear (perhaps concurrently with the cp-cp test). When that data is available a balanced discussion will be possible. My thanks to the AMSAT DL team at Bochum, the OK1KIR team and the IQ4DF team for their help with the tests done so far. If anyone is put off from coming on to 10GHz EME because they feel they must have the additional complexity of a circularly polarised system that would be a pity. 73 Brian G4NNS Currently 9W, 3.7M, remote controlled linear polarisation, 24 initials on 10GHz. I have a choice of circular or linear on 3.4 and 5.7GHz but so far all QSOs have been with linear. PS anyone for circular on 24GHz..... ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 01:01:58 +0100 From: "Luis Cupido" Subject: Re: [Moon-net] 10GHz Polarisation Brian, and all, I just processed some signals from the Bochum's experiment being Amsat DL transmitting linear and G4NNS receiving linear rotating from 0 to 90 degrees. The graphic (that I hope Brian post on his web pages soon) clearly shows the amount of polarization preservation at that experiment. The signal is 20dB above noise when aligned and 10dB above noise when orthogonal. This is even more polarity conservative than the experiment with RX at OK1KIR that I processed and presented in my Dubusarticle, where 6dB were observed. ### This clearly show that we are not in a marginal situation ### If we believe in the results of the tests conducted so far, In a QSO between two average size stations with a few dB of S/N at each end, 45deg misalignment means NO QSO. > At present my view is that for inter EU or EU - US contacts following the convention of EU vertical and US horizontal the benefits of circular will be marginal at best. Brian, this is a recurrent issue. There are stations with polar mount and modified rotational mounts that don't maintain linear polarity alignment while tracking. (those to maintain the convention must have variable linear !!!) Not to mention spatial offset, for example I'm 45 deg off Russia and 90 + 45 off Japan... well we no longer have just central Europe and central US on the game. > If the circular system has more than about 1dB of elipticity Why should it have more than that ??? > or if the circular polarizer system involves coax, Why should it involve coax ??? (only if we want, for example the PwrAmp out is SMA and we need an sma cable to connect to the feed) (otherwise all is waveguide...) > particularly on the receive side, Geeee........ why are you devoting time to such pessimistic and bad suggestions ??? > that marginal advantage could be negated. Why are you saying it is marginal when the first batch of tests shown something like 6dB. And the last ones with the signal received at your OWN end show 10dB !!!!!! --- Folks, the results I've processed with signals from various stations ALL point in the same direction. There are depolarization that varies from 5 to 10dB down. Never had a SINGLE example of total depolarization by anyone ;-) >From all this, it is pretty obvious now that ### if there is room for polarization misalignment in linear### ### they would better in circular ### or, if we don't want to allow room for misalignment, ### if we say that EU-EU and EU-US are okay with the old standard of vertical / horizontal ### ### we are forcing polarmounts and alike plus some geographical regions to use rotable linear ### It is as simple as that, in my humble opinion. --- Folks, I'm starting to believe that this discussion may easily leave technical grounds and enter emotional fields (and it will not be the first time that something like that happens on moon-net ) and that is exactly where I start to lose interest ;-) (or start writing poems, and you don't want that to happen ;-) Luis Cupido. CT1DMK. ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 01:12:21 +0100 From: Chris Bartram Subject: [Moon-net] 10GHz Polarisation Can we not let the discussion regarding circular/linear polarisation turn into a crusade! Although instinctively I feel that CP is the right choice, particularly as activity (hopefully!) increases around the globe, and the Eu/NA axis becomes less important, the arguments of the advocates of the retention of the current polarisation standard are also quite convincing. We need to examine the advantages and disadvantages of a change in a dispassionate way. When I get a few hours, I will analyse the available test results and look for things like evidence of poor circularity. It's not _that_ difficult to do! As Brian, G4NNS, has said, we need more information, but that means that future tests need better planning. Unfortunately, there are few stations with facilities like calibrated adjustable linear polarisation. In my case, it would be a _lot_ easier to go circular than to arrange adjustable linear polarisation... Can I echo (pun intended!) Brian's other comment. If you are interested in joining us on 10GHz, don't let these discussions about polarisation put you off! If you can find the Moon with a 1.8m or larger dish on 10GHz, and you have a tropo system which runs >10W with a reasonable receiver, you should be able to make some contacts, particularly around perigee. Come and join us! As for 24GHz and up - at least there's not the temptation to try to use coax systems on those bands!! Vy 73 Chris GW4DGU ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 02:37:18 +0200 (CEST) From: vladimir.masek@volny.cz Subject: [Moon-net] Fwd: 10GHz Polarisation Hello all "new" hams (if anybody,hi) going to initiate some more fun on 10 GHz EME ! Please, stop discussion on CP vs linear and spend time to get on either with linear or CP ! It could be not more than only up to 3 dB difference at maximum, believe me, not more !!! Look on Brian's achievements ! It does not matter as much if he uses 9W into rotable linear or if he could employ 18W into CP without rotation. Just keep any losses on the feed compartment (RX and TX) as low as possible. Any 1 dB of loss you will be able to kick out of the way between the feed mouth and the gate of LNA FET or TX output would count more than the real difference of CP vs linear ! So, take care to eliminate any semirigid or coax jumpers or even improperly matched and/or too long WG transitions! Simplicity will be the winner ! Just if you are located in EU and would like to pick up an VK or JA, if active, you should look on a way how to rotate the feed by +/- 45 or at best up to +/-90 degrees. Actually you can even rotate the whole rig like do we, at OK1KIR. Be sure, no continuous movement is essential, just a kind of mechanical flip-flop positions like on a mobile phones will serve as well. What you have to do, it is nothing more that to eliminate the sharp signal drop at +/- 90 degrees polarisation off-set. A feed turn by +/- 45 degrees is enough in real life. If you do not believe me, please, spend some time on and evaluate audio recordings on Brian's web page. Please, especially watch the signal strenght in relation to degrees of rotation ! By my view, there is factually only one mandatory benefit of CP. You do not need any mechanical rotation or turning of the feed position (polarisation) in respect to where the other party is located ! Marko,S57UUU and Ben,SM6CKU did a great job supporting simple way how to get CP on 10 GHz ! Just read the Wuerburg EME conference proceedings and do it ! I personally do not think there is principially necessary to continue discusion and approve another recommendation instead of getting active on either with linear or CP ! Who is active on the band takes the steering power ! No conclusions or recommendations can serve for him ! It absolutely does not mean that I will not continue participation in investigation (research) of CP vs linear benefits. Good luck with linear or CP on MW EME ! Vladimir, OK1DAK for OK1KIR EME Just a footnote: After 25 yrs on EME hobby (70cm up to 10 GHz) with almost home made linear, linear rotable and CP, we, at OK1KIR, know what we are talking about. ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 01:59:32 +0100 From: "Luis Cupido" Subject: Re: [Moon-net] 10GHz Polarisation Hi Chris, All fine... I would like to be systematic if possible... > the arguments of the advocates of the retention of the current polarization standard are also quite convincing. And those arguments are ? > Brian, G4NNS, has said, we need more information, but that means that future tests need better planning. Why is more information necessary ?? (besides more solid statistics) The linear advocates based all their reasoning on the assumption that depolarization was so severe that linear or circular would be irrelevant, or quite severe that the circular advantage would disappear because of the feed losses and circularity etc. That is now well known to NOT be the case. Depolarization was measured to be from -6dB to -10dB from several independent RX recordings. Polarizer and OMT designs are available, and not difficult to construct and not lossy. > Can I echo (pun intended!) Brian's other comment. If you are interested in joining us on 10GHz, don't let these discussions about polarisation put you off! :- ) Yeap... and how that would be ? In linear just because is easier ? or circular ? Luis Cupido. CT1DMK. ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 07:52:19 +0400 From: Alex Subject: Re: [Moon-net] Fwd: 10GHz Polarisation To: vladimir.masek@volny.cz Vladimir - large thank for this letter in moon-net - gold words! I completely agree and I support OK1KIR team To speak it is possible much....... Let's better more actively to work Any work is estimated by result vy 73 Alex RW1AW EME 2m,70-23-13-6-3cm rw1aw@appello.de ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 09:05:43 +0100 From: "Brian Coleman" Hello All Good words Vladimir. I look forward to the next tests ... and QSOs 73 Brian G4NNS ------------------------------ Message: 10 Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 08:16:58 -0500 From: "Earl \(Jim\) Shaffer, WB9UWA" Subject: Re: [Moon-net] 10GHz Polarisation Hi All. I am not yet on 10Ghz, but I am far from ruling that out. It seems the decision to go CP has already been made and agreed to. The only thing left to do now is make a system with the best possible circularity. What we do on 2M is to go with an already existing convention and make the best of it. In that case, a Linrad radio seems to be the best answer. A Linrad radio might be a good solution on 10 Ghz in times that circularity of the path is not optimal. My point is that everyone should follow the prevailing convention and make the best of it. There are already enough bands and modes without adding a division of polarity too. I would love to see CP as the polarity convention on all bands. It would certainly take the question of polarity out of the picture. I realize that on 2M, CP will never prevail because it nearly prevents working tropo stations on EME. This will not be the case on microwave bands. CP is clearly the convention on 1296 Mhz and it seems to work out very nicely. On the other hand linear polarity is used at 432 Mhz and polarity issues are one of the biggest challenges for working that band. That should be a clue. 73, Jim Shaffer, WB9UWA. ------------------------------ Message: 11 Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 07:53:20 -0700 From: "Jerry Kleker" Subject: Re: [Moon-net] 10GHz Polarisation Hi Jim, Well said......Amen. 73 es GL, Jerry W7QX ------------------------------ Message: 12 Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 08:56:51 -0800 From: "Edward R. Cole" Subject: [Moon-net] 10GHz EME My efforts to 10-GHz have slipped over the years, but we just successfully moved the 2.4m ku-band dish to the new QTH. It is currently set up with a cylindrical feed with two wr90 w/g runs (I suspect this was to provide orthoganal linear pols to the original VSAT system). I propose to use one of these for intial testing and suppose this will result in linear pol. The dish is rotatable +/- 45 degrees in polarity. I wonder if the roughly 2m of w/g will degrade performance? My plan is to mount a 4-port w/g switch at the back side of the dish and attach my 102-EME db6nt preamp on one port. A wr90 coax transition will be used to connect the 50w TWT which uses sma for output. I have some of these ideas on my 10-GHz EME webpage if anyone would look and comment on my plans. I figure that it will be another couple years in building as 1296-EME is the goal for next summer. I follow the cp/linear pol discussion with interest. CP can be done after the system is QRV with little problem. 73's, Ed - KL7UW ------------------------------ Message: 13 Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 11:09:24 -0700 From: "Jerry Kleker" Subject: [Moon-net] CIRCULAR VS LINEAR POLARIZATION ON 10 GHz EME As I have mentioned in previous email letters it appears that there are 2 Knowledgeable gentlemen that have been very outspoken AGAINST mandating circular polarization on 10 GHz. They are WA7CJO and WA5VJB. This is a very serious problem since the "mandate" of the 2002 EME Conference in Prague was to encourage the exclusive use of circular polarization for EME on frequencies above 1296 MHz and including 10 GHz. My "in person" conversations with these fellows has resulted in the following arguments from them: WA7CJO insists that the experiments performed in the late 1960s conclude that after all factors are considered, it is better to use linear than circular polarization. I have no personal knowledge of the data taken during these experiments. I do know that Jim is a very learned man with much 10 GHz experience but none that I know of it regards the testing the various types of polarization on 10 GHz EME. WA5VJB originally was following the reasoning of WA7CJO but during the 2005 MUD conference he took the solid position that "much more experimenting must be done". With regard to "more experimenting", I think our fellow European 10 GHz EMErs are finished with their experimenting and their conclusions have been made public. These include CT1DMK, LX1DB, G4NNS, OK1CA, S57UUU, and many others. This was discussed at the 2002 EME Conference and the "mandate" was made. Please look at my web page for the chart showing the effects of cross polarization on 10 GHz EME: http://groups.msn.com/W7QX Caution Moon-Net readers......the reflector prints the above address "twice". 73, Jerry W7QX ------------------------------ Message: 14 Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 19:28:17 +0100 From: "Brian Coleman" Subject: Re: [Moon-net] 10GHz EME Hello Ed I think your system should work very well. Have you found the VK3UM EMEcalc.exe program (eg at http://www.sm2cew.com/download.htm ) . If you put your numbers into that it should tell you what to expect. I don't think the length of rigid waveguide will be much of a problem. If it had been flexible I would have suggested you test it because it can be very bad, but not always. 73 and hope to have QSO some day Brian G4NNS ------------------------------ Message: 15 Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 20:29:01 +0200 From: DF6NA Rainer Subject: Re: [Moon-net] CIRCULAR / LINEAR POL ON 10 GHz EME Hi Jerry, > With regard to "more experimenting", I think our fellow European 10 GHz EMErs are finished with their experimenting and > their conclusions have been made public. These include CT1DMK, LX1DB, G4NNS, OK1CA, S57UUU, and many others. This was > discussed at the 2002 EME Conference and the "mandate" was made. I guess you are mixing up some things The experiments from G4NNS, LX1DB and OK's were made last year. This implements they could not be discussed in 2002. If that were the case the '"mandate" of the 2002 EME Conference in Prague ' as you say would not have been the same! But I think you should get qrv and then this discussion would be obsolete. 73, Rainer -- EME Conference 2006 in Wuerzburg, Germany: http://www.eme2006.com/ VHF/UHF/SHF Online Toplist: http://www.vhf-dx.net/top.html DF6NA Homepage: http://www.df6na.de/ Amateurfunk-Flohmarkt: http://www.afu-flohmarkt.de/ VHF-DX.net: http://www.vhf-dx.net/ ------------------------------ Message: 16 Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 11:48:29 -0700 From: "Jerry Kleker" Subject: Re: [Moon-net] [Mw] CIRCULAR / LINEAR POL ON 10 GHz EME To: "DF6NA Rainer" Hi Rainer, I have nothing mixed up. Last year at MUD 2005, WA5VJB said "more experimenting should be done". I am saying to WA5VJB that "the experimenting HAS BEEN DONE" Why do you say that the "mandate" would have been different in light of last years experiments???? It seems to me that last years experiments compliment, bolster, and reinforce the "mandate". Are we on the same page? I am trying very very hard to become QRV again. It appears that the discussions will not become obsolete in any event. There are many many new fellows trying to become active on 10 GHz (both terrestrial and EME). They have these polarization questions on their mind. 73, Jerry W7QX ------------------------------ Message: 17 Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 12:06:27 -0700 From: "Jerry Kleker" Subject: Re: [Moon-net] 10Ghz feedhorns Hi Gary, Thanks for the email. I hope that I haven't confused you about the polarization thing. The argument/discussion pertains to EME polarization. As far as I know, all terrestrial work is done using horizontal polarization. Probably there are more fellows using linear polarization on EME but there is a movement toward the use of circular polarization. There are many ways to feed your 1.8 M Prodelin dish. Why don't you take a look at W1GHZ's "ON-LINE MICROWAVE ANTENNA HANDBOOK" at: http://www.qsl.net/n1bwt/contents.htm This should be of great assistance to you. As far as power is concerned: The terrestrial guys try to get a few watts to the antenna. The EME guys with a 10 foot dish or bigger can work many stations using as low as 15 watts but somewhere between 25 and 100 watts will definitely improve results. The cost for output power rises exponentially above 15 watts. 73 es GL, Jerry W7QX Subject: 10Ghz feedhorns Jerry, I am about to deploy on 10Ghz myself and my intentions are to start with a commercial feed made for my 1.8m prodelin dish. I thought tests of polarization on 10Ghz sorta indicated not much advantage in circular polarization. I remember listening to the various wavefiles generated during variuos polarizations and echo testing. What is the most used polarization on Tx/Rx currently ? How much power is adequate to start with? I have a 2135 Siemens TWT which I am hoping to get operational. Is this sufficent? Gary, N8CQ ------------------------------ Message: Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 21:20:21 +0200 From: "Daniel Gautschi, HB9CRQ" Subject: [Moon-net] HB9Q QRV ARRL EME Contest To: "*moon-net" Message-ID: <000401c6e4c5$7ac7ea10$2101a8c0@MENZIKEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Dear friends Our target is to work as many stations as possible on 144, 432 and 1296. Of course old friends as well as new stations (QRP are very welcome!) are very welcome! We plan to be QRV as follows: October 14th 00.00 - 13.30z and? October 14th 23.00 - 14.00z (October 15th) On 144 our main mode will be JT65B, however we will switch every now and then to CW.? On 432 we plan to us 50% JT and 50% CW.? On 1296 we will use mainly CW.? Please check for us on the following frequencies: 144.040 CW and 144.111 JT65B 1st? 432.030 CW and 432.077 JT65B 1st 1296.030 CW and 1296.077 JT65C 1st Depending on QRM we move our frequencies a few KHz up or down. We are looking forward to work all our old friends and many new ones on all 3 bands! On 144 1x9y and 100W, on 432 1x19y and 25W and on 1296 1x30y 100W are enough to work us on JT65 random. If you have any question, feel free to contact us at dan@hb9q.ch anytime! To learn more about our capabilities (our RIG, stations worked and minimum requirement to work us) go to www.hb9q.ch We will update the EME-community a few days before the contest about our activity plans. Please look for our update on the moon-net and on our home-page at www.hb9q.ch! We wish you lot's of fun and success during the contest! Vy 73 es happy moonbouncing! Dan, HB9CRQ/KT6Q Head of HB9Q www.hb9q.ch ------------------------------ Message: 18 Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 12:43:30 -0700 From: "Jerry Kleker" Subject: Re: [Moon-net] [Mw] CIRCULAR / LINEAR POL ON 10 GHz EME To: "DF6NA Rainer" PLEASE RAINER, LOOK AT THIS PICTURE! http://groups.msn.com/W7QX/10ghzemepolarizationtests.msnw?action=ShowPhoto& PhotoID=72 IF 10 DB IS MARGINAL TO YOU......... 73, Jerry W7QX Hi Gerald, absolutely right! That's what WA7CJO says. Jerry: > My WHOLE point has been that "now that it is common to call CQ without > a schedule on 10 GHz EME, we would handicap ourselves if we stuck with > linear polarization". If any the handicap from linear pol will be very marginal! 73, Rainer VHF/UHF/SHF Online Toplist: http://www.vhf-dx.net/top.html DF6NA Homepage: http://www.df6na.de/ ------------------------------ Message: 19 Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 21:57:57 +0200 From: DF6NA Rainer Subject: Re: [Moon-net] [Mw] CIRCULAR / LINEAR POL ON 10 GHz EME To: Jerry Kleker Jerry: just think before you make a conclusion! The dish in Bochum is much tooooo big. It illuminates just a little spot of the moon while most amateur dishes will illuminate the whole moon. And as Gerald says the surface is very rough and the moon is not flat but spheric. Coming back to G4NNS: If any, the handicap from linear pol will be very marginal!!!!!! Coming back to other: Get QRV and the discussion will stop! 73, Rainer ------------------------------ Message: 20 Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 22:03:43 +0200 From: Philippe P Subject: Re: [Moon-net] Fwd: 10GHz Polarisation To: moon-net@list-serv.davidv.net Hello, I do not want to take party for or counters the CP on 10 GHz. Only some observations: - For contest ARRL, the propagation was very bad (East F and LX). We carried out tests with LX1DB. I am in VP. LX1DB tested LP and CP: my signal was received more clearly in CP. - On 5.7 GHz, I am in CP, the signals are never degraded and echoes SSB are of very good quality. - With a polarization CP, not need for relay TX/RX for Pa, only small relay for RX. A Wave Guide relay, it should be found? - To pass in CP supposes that everyone does it. Some, which use commercial dish and feed, will have to make modifications which can appear heavy for certain. 73 Philippe PIERRAT - F2TU http://F2TU.perso.orange.fr ------------------------------ Message: 21 Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 21:20:57 +0100 From: "Luis Cupido" Subject: Re: [Moon-net] [Mw] CIRCULAR / LINEAR POL ON 10 GHz EME To: "DF6NA Rainer" Rainer, Look then at the pictures I presented on my article un Dubus 2/2006. It was with average stations. And still was observable 6dB at cross pol. Luis Cupido. CT1DMK. ------------------------------ Message: 22 Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 21:23:43 +0100 From: "Brian Coleman" Subject: [Moon-net] 10GHz Polarization Jerry Mandate ... A command from a superior official..... lets keep this discussion based on science not commands. 73 Brian ------------------------------ Message: 23 Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 14:43:18 -0700 From: "Jerry Kleker" Subject: [Moon-net] Fw: [Mw] CIRCULAR / LINEAR POL ON 10 GHz EME To: "cupido" I have deleted the picture below and reposted it again for better viewing: http://groups.msn.com/W7QX/10ghzemepolarizationtests.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=74 73, Jerry W7QX ---------------------------------- Message: 24 Date: Sun, 01 Oct 2006 00:24:29 +0200 (CEST) From: vladimir.masek@volny.cz Subject: Re: [Moon-net] [Mw] CIRCULAR / LINEAR POL ON 10 GHz EME Hi Rainer and all ! Absolutely support You ! Discussion is good, promotes knowledge, initiates own thinking, but please, continue from words further: get QRV, test it ownself and bring own opinion to the discussion. It would be really great and we are looking for ! GL on that way to all explorers ! 73 ! Vladimir, OK1DAK (OK1KIR EME) ------------------------------ Message: 25 Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 15:43:55 -0700 From: Alfred Green Subject: Re: [Moon-net] Fw: [Mw] CIRCULAR / LINEAR POL ON 10 GHz EME To: moon-net@list-serv.davidv.net Jerry Kleker wrote: >I have deleted the picture below and reposted it again for better viewing: > Interesting. I presume that the blue plot is the signal strength. What is the other one? The big dropouts at ~5, 70 & 137 look suspicious. Are they real, or due to an instrumentation issue? I am still working on getting my 15' dish on the air. Now that the AZ summer is over, and my QRL travel schedule is easing somewhat, that should happen in the next few months. Even though the first target is 1296, I have always had the plan to have 10Gig capability. The polarization issue will significantly affect the mechanics of the feed mount, so I am following this discussion with great interest. Even though some of the posts appear a bit strained, I hope they continue. GL & 73, Alf NU8I Scottsdale AZ DM43an 160m - 10Gigs ------------------------------ Message: 26 Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2006 00:05:47 +0100 From: "Luis Cupido" Subject: Re: [Moon-net] [Mw] Fw: CIRCULAR / LINEAR POL ON 10 GHz EME To: "Alfred Green" , Alf, The blue is the signal averaged, the red is just the noise floor 100Hz away from signal and the TX was actually a CQ call so what tou see is dots and dashes integrated, hence the dropouts. You clearly see a bigger pause after the sequence "CQCQCQ CALL CALL" three times. Luis Cupido. ct1dmk. ------------------------------ Message: 27 Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2006 00:08:27 +0100 From: "Luis Cupido" Subject: Re: [Moon-net] 10GHz Polarization Folks, Since yesterday I've received too many emails about this issue. I want one thing to become clear. The signals processed were received at the following stations: F2TU, G4NNS, LX1DB, OK1KIR and GW4DGU. I only processed the data that was sent to me via web or CD (and no data from my own station was analyzed this time). The two plots circulated today were from a big station to a small station and shows -10dB when cross polarized. the other was from two small stations and shows -6 to -8dB when cross pol. These are FACTS, if for some reason you don't trust or want to analyze the data yourself I will be glad to send it over (it should fit a CD or two). This humble servant only processed what was sent to him, I know it was customary in the middle ages to kill the messenger of bad news, please drop that tradition will you !!! Luis Cupido. CT1DMK. P.S. I would be active no matter it is on Lin or CP but I would like to know what I should make for my new setup that I'm building right now with a bigger tube and a new preamp. ------------------------------ Message: 28 Date: Sun, 01 Oct 2006 19:30:26 +0200 (CEST) From: vladimir.masek@volny.cz Subject: Re: [Moon-net] Hot discussion about CP on 10GHz EME To: moon-net@list-serv.davidv.net, microwave@echo.valinet.com Hi all, allow me a small note from one who participated on the CP vs linear tests so deeply discussed. Would be happy if a piece of enthusiasm spent here was present in the spring time when we did the tests. I highly appreciate the effort of Brian, G4NNS, who initiated the tests with the aim to collect practical data to evaluate the recommendation for CP on 10 GHz approved by many of us already at 10th EME Conference in Prague 2002. To help better understand the issue, please, if interested, read the short review as follows (directly from my mind so sorry for some imperfections): Brian, G4NNS arranged several tests from Feb till April 2006 with LX1DB, DK0SB (2x) and IQ4DF. Unfortunately, regardless there were several listeners to these tests, only G4NNS and OK1KIR recorded usable audio files rotating RX linear polarization in 10 deg steps. All recordings can be found on G4NNS web page and of OK1KIR on [1]http://www.qsl.net/ok1vao/10GHz_pol_test/ as well. Luis, CT1DMK made some audio processing and published it among description of CP feed designs for 10GHz already in DUBUS 2/2006. If anyone can continue DSP analysis of the rest of recordings, it would be great help. There are available recordings of signals from TX sides: DK0SB 20 m dish BW3 ? 0.1? and 800/700 W of rf pwr (continuous signal LP) IQ4DF 7 m dish BW3 ? 0.3? and 200 W of rf pwr (only cq and dots transmitted with LP) LX1DB 10 m dish BW3 ? 0.2? and 60W (cq transmitted with CP and LP) downloaded at RX sides: G4NNS 3.7 m dish BW3 ? 0.55? (LX1DB, DK0SB, IQ4DF) OK1KIR 4.5 m dish BW3 ? 0.45? (DK0SB, IQ4DF) Audio recordings are available for each 10 deg step when rotating linear polarization of RX feed by +/-90 deg. Reflected signals were received with BW of cca 0.5deg angle (i.e. full ?Moon? in picture). I did some (time consuming) ?hand? processing which gave me the maximum avg ratio co- vs cross-polarisation in the range 10?12 dB at DK0SB signal (accuracy of pointing was better than hundreds of deg !) and 8?10 dB at IQ4DF signal. This clearly indicates that linear polarization very well sustains after reflection from the Moon, especially when its ?plain? central area has been illuminated. Anyone with better DSP SW could help with more complex outcome similar to what Luis,CT1DMK, presented yesterday on W7QX web page and is available on Brian?s web as well. Nevertheless what is missing to finalize the story is a test between two medium size dishes of approx. 4m with BW of 0.5 deg and rf power of at least 40W on TX side with TX, which can survive continuous key-down and NF<1 dB to get reasonable s+n/n ratio on RX side. Stations with SSPA can be in favor, hi. I hope that no one believes that the polarization plane will completely disappear just for the reason that antenna beam will be extended from 0.3 deg to 0.5 deg to hit the whole Moon ! If that is true, and I believe that it is, there is only a question if we all are able to agree a common proposal for new designs and/or newcomers to 10G EME to ease the new projects or we want to stay glued to existing positions and discussions and have futher both polarization in use. I understood there is a lot of different arguments. But I remember similar situation some time ago at 23 cm and 13cm as well before the septum feed came in. At the end let me drop a provocative EME jingle: As higher the frequency, as bigger the dish, as more CP is wanted for another party small dish. Have a fun on EME and GL on new 10G projects ! ?Viel spass? ! Vladimir, OK1DAK (OK1KIR) References 1. http://www.qsl.net/ok1vao/10GHz_pol_test/ ------------------------------ Message: 29 Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2006 19:49:27 +0200 From: "Willi Bauer" Subject: Re: [Moon-net] 10GHz Polarization Hi Just a short comment: F2TU statement! - For contest ARRL, the propagation was very bad (East F and LX). We carried out tests with LX1DB. I am in VP. LX1DB tested LP and CP: my signal was received more clearly in CP. That is a fact. Just to clarify the WX was 8/8 covered with stratus clouds and my echoes not stable at all. After the QSO with F2TU I change to CP. Result: after 10 min time to change the feed my echoes always stable and more clear audio! I just checked the other station at that time on the band and there the audio was also clear and easy to read even in small audio bandwidth. I had not more time because I was QRL service on Sunday -Remember the comments during the LIN CP test.. the signal was more easy to read. I think it was GW4? My way to goes is: I try analyzing the result and making the effort to realize. 73 de Willi LX1DB ------------------------------ Message: 30 Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2006 19:34:59 +0100 From: "Luis Cupido" Subject: Re: [Moon-net] Hot discussion about CP on 10GHz EME Vladimir, After some emails I received both direct and via moon-net I'm felt that my effort was not too well appreciated, and somehow not trusted. (I even got an email explicitly saying that). Sorry if I'm being too sensitive, but please explain what you mean on your sentences below. > Luis, CT1DMK made some audio processing and published it among description > of CP feed designs for 10GHz already in DUBUS 2/2006. > If anyone can continue DSP analysis of the rest of recordings, it would > be great help. I think I can continue through the rest of the recordings, or should I understand from your words that you prefer that someone else volunteer to do it ? > Anyone with better DSP SW could help with more complex outcome similar > to what Luis,CT1DMK, presented yesterday on W7QX web page and is available > on Brian?s web as well. I'm using "Mat-Lab", again should I understand that in your opinion it is not good enough and you require someone else with better DSP SW ? (btw, what DSP software you have in mind ?) Let me know. Luis Cupido. ct1dmk. ------------------------------ Message: 31 Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2006 11:40:30 -0700 From: "Jerry Kleker" Subject: Re: [Moon-net] Hot discussion about CP on 10GHz EME To: Cc: moon-net@list-serv.davidv.net, microwave valinet Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Hi Vladimir, Thank you very much for the detailed discussion of the tests. I "DID" bring the subject up when the data was first presented. At that time very little was said other than "WA7CJO and S57UUU will discuss it and finalize it for all of us at the 2006 EME Conference at Wurzburg" (from WA5VJB). This did not happen. When I discovered that, I thought it was proper to bring it up "again" on this medium. I apologize for upsetting anybody with discussions of this matter but to be very honest with you all, one of my reasons was to disrupt the "Heliax Power Line" discussions and talk about something of interest to myself. 73, Jerry W7QX ------------------------------ Message: 32 Date: Sun, 01 Oct 2006 20:40:52 +0200 From: DF6NA Rainer Subject: Re: [Moon-net] Hot discussion about CP on 10GHz EME Hi Vladimir, my last word: KISS - don't worry - use linear and be HAPPY ! 73, Rainer ------------------------------ Message: 33 Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2006 20:46:04 +0200 From: "OK1DFC" Subject: Re: [Moon-net] 10GHz Polarization Hi all, really strange discuss here now and open again same problem like many times before. I am not on 10 GHz QRV but fact is that CP is much better for Moon bouncing like linear polarization. This is physical fact and no possible to change it by the discuss only because "PHYSIC is no possible to bend". I saw couple items before that the discuss about physical fact is moving some where to emotion base or so. With the could head I would like to present that: As a first: No possible to discuss or present result of EME conference 2002 in Praha as any dictate or so, because the result of recommendation to use CP was as a result of open, public discussion and voting all attending persons, no dictate of any single person. As a second: Presenting two gurus of MW Moon bouncing as a main argument for using Linear polarization is unfair. Both guys like W5LUA and WA7CJO are top in the MW operation, but if you check their systems, they have profi feed horns and dishes where is not so many space for laboration or changing of possibility to work CP. If I will have on my garden profi dish and profi linear system do not thing to start dismantling this as a first. I am fully respecting Al and Joe and their great job, do not thing that I am fighting them. If any body want to present any advantages or desadvantages between CP and Linear polarization, please made 100 measuring experiments and present here your results with clear solution for all of us. Thanks Zdenek - OK1DFC JN79GW www.ok1dfc.com QRV EME - 144 - 1296 MHz 10m DISH - QRO ------------------------------ Message: 34 Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2006 11:55:25 -0700 From: "Jerry Kleker" Subject: Re: [Moon-net] 10GHz Polarization Thank you Zdenek, Would you PLEASE present the Conclusion of your tests and measurements so that they can be printed here? Thank you very much for all of your hard work. 73, Jerry W7QX ------------------------------ Message: 35 Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2006 13:51:21 -0700 From: "Jerry Kleker" Subject: [Moon-net] THANK YOU!!! To Willi (LX1DB) and Vladimir (OK1KIR) and Zdenek (OK1DFC, Thank you very much for the great amount of work that you all have done to help resolve the polarization question on 10 GHz EME. If you think that this discussion has taken a long time, it was just 50 years ago that "The question of whether Horizontal or Vertical Polarization was the best for 2 meter terrestrial communication" was finally resolved and agreed upon in the USA (the answer was Horizontal). It had divided the USA VHF community for almost 10 years! Thank you again, and especially for putting your messages out today. 73, Jerry W7QX Soon to be QRV on 10 GHz EME CP from DM44ar _______________________________________________ Microwave mailing list microwave@lists.valinet.com http://www.valinet.com/mailman/listinfo/microwave _____________________________________________ Moon-Net posting and subscription instructions are at http://www.nlsa.com/nets/moon-net-help.html End of Moon-net Digest, Vol 64, Issues 6 - 8 *******************************************